Unregistered users may browse the website, but in order to participate in the forums and view select pages (such as "Club Contacts" and "Classified Ads") a user account is required. Click HERE to email the webmaster and request a free account. The National DeSoto Club uses real names rather than pseudonyms. Notify the webmaster of your user name preference (Johnathon Doe vs. John Doe, etc.), preferred email address, and password request.
Hi. Have a 1955 DeSoto Firedome 2 dr hardtop. Has Power steering and Coker wide white radials. Has always handled really well. However, some time ago I learned I had loose king pins. Took it in and ended up swapping out the steering box, king pins and idler arm. After that, the camber could not be set at positive and the wheel will not return to center. Adjustment is maxed out. Car began wandering a lot in the lane. Just got more work done including a new center link and tried again to set camber more positive. Still cannot set it to positive and car still wanders. We know the steering box is loose and king pins, even though they only have maybe 3000 miles on them, are also a little loose. We cannot find any other obvious problems. Any ideas out there? Does have radial tires. Getting so I will drive it in town but not on the highway. Too much wander. Help!
Steve, I have muddled through very similar situations such as late '60s, early '70s GM large cars (Cadillac, Buick Electra, Olds 98, Pontiac Bonnevile) where the front suspension/engine crossmember has collapsed (sagged in the middle) creating the condition where the proper amount of positive camber could not be obtained. Proper camber settings are required to offset the necessary toe in wear and allow for dynamic (driving) stability.
The cure involves a visit to a frame rack to have the crossmember spread back to specs. Most old time frame techs will be familar with the process. Hopefully, our 55 tech advisor has (or can find) the actual dimension spec as measured between the upper control arm shafts.
In the Cincinnati area, this procedure would be billed at 2.0 to 3.0 hours of setup and pull time in a price range of somewhere between $150 to $250 but would not include realignment.
Keep us posted as to your results.
'Still Having Fun With Cars!'
Geoff Overley
Geoff, that is very interesting information. I do not have a problem with my 53 Desoto but I do with an 89 Chevy truck and 1995 BMW. I believe in both cases the dealer cannot get the right camber. I will have to keep this in mind. Thank you.
Camber, while important, usually doesn't cause wander. Caster allows the car to track straight. It's what allows you to take your hands off your bike's handlebars for instance. What is your caster spec and current setting? On this type front end you adjust caster and camber at the same time. You definitely need to get the camber to spec but same goes with caster.
Tim Mabry
The Lost Cause Garage
47 Suburban
57 Sportsman 4dr HT
Yes, you are right. It is the caster that is not right and cannot be adjusted. From what I understand, it is now at "0" and cannot be made positive which is where I want it to make the steering return to center. The mechanic (actually two of them since the second one was a "2nd opinion") says there is no room to move the bolt any more. (I keep getting camber and caster mixed up.) The last mechanic said he can modify the suspension by taking some metal off that will allow additional adjustment. I am wondering if my major problem is the steering box is just too loose???? I have about 5 steering boxes and they are all loose. I am thinking I need to send in a couple units (restoring a 55 Fireflite convertible too, so need one for sure) to Lares Manufacturing and get them rebuilt, then see if that takes care of my problem. Wouldn't hurt to check that frame as suggested as well. Any opinions about this plan?
A couple more suggestions.
I found the following specs online:
Caster: -2 to 0 Preferably -1
Camber: -1/8 to +5/8 Preferably +1/4
Toe: 0 to +1/16
If your mechanic is trying to attain positive caster (usual situation on later model cars) it will prevent being able to get the desired camber. Hopefully after dialling in the negative caster, the camber should come in at the desired dimension.
When you state that the steering box "is loose", where are you seeing the "slop"? Is the steering arm moving "up and down" rather than back and forth? If so, the sector shaft (to which the pitman arm is attached) is loose inside the box usually due to bearing wear. This is externally adjustable on later model boxes but may require removing the upper sector plate and shimming the upper sector shaft bearing. Also, the drag link and tie rod ends need to be inspected for any looseness.
Also, these specs would indicate that the radial tires may be exacerbating the wander situation. Radial tires rely on a greater amount of both positive caster and negative camber to perform acceptably.
Hi Geoff The tie rods are tight, the idler arm has been replaced with a Kanter replacement part, we just installed an NOS center link (same as the drag link?). King pins are a little loose (although they were just replaced less than 5,000 miles ago). I am not sure where the "looseness" is in the steering box. I believe it is in the gears. On the gear box that was on the car before this one was replaced, there was a clunk when the pitman arm was turned on the shaft, meaning there was play in the gears inside the box. (The pitman arm was tight on the shaft itself.) Car tends to wander, then overreacts when corrected, then overreacts in the opposite direction when corrected from this overreaction. Scary! As far as I know, everything is mechanically tight in the linkage from the pitman arm to the wheels at this time. Steve
Geoff, I had a frame dimensions chart. Have lots of things. The mechanic is checking dimensions to see f the frame needs work.
Your wander situation screams of a toe out problem. Do you have a print out of the final specs of your alignment or a list of them? (See desired specs in my post of 11/11) Even if the static (sitting still) toe is zero or even the desired 1/16 toe in, dynamically (driving), the front tires will tend to toe out because of rolling resistance, so that each steering correction results in an overcorrection. Also, about how many degrees of total free play on the steering wheel?
Geoff, you are a real help. I will be checking on those things when I get the car back, hopefully this afternoon. I took my frame chart to the mechanic. The front frame dimension is supposed to be 35 1/2 inches. He measured 35 1/4 inches. Around the middle of the frame (front to rear) he said it was off about the same, 1/4 inch. I am looking for a good frame shop in or near Bakersfield, CA. The one I trust closed several years ago when the guy retired. I want to get the frame checked and corrected first, then go from there. I also want to find a good alignment shop that knows these old cars well. I will share with them all your comments and see what we can do from there, but first, make sure that frame is where it is supposed to be. Thank you so much!
Happy to be of help.
Back to the steering box slop, see if the sector shaft (to which the pitman arm attaches) moves up and down before it turns side to side as the steering wheel is turned. There may be a way to adjust the preload on the sector shaft upper bearing to remove that play. That type of stuff was covered in the National Data Service Manual I once had but it stayed with my restoration shop when I sold it.
Keep me posted and best of luck,
Geoff
Been mulling over your problem. So far Geoff and others have been spot on. After you get the frame straight and before the front end is set to spec (some guys think ALL cars have + caster since all the cars they have ever seen do) get the rolling toe checked as Geoff mentioned. You do that by rolling the car forward, measuring the toe, rolling it rearward, measure again, then roll forward and measure again. I like to use a 1x2 with a nail in one end. (Believe it or not this is how it was done when the car was new, before $50K Hunter machines.) If the forward measurement is a lot greater than the rearward this points to worn parts. Severe toe out will cause a darting sensation. If the steering linkage is in good shape like you say I doubt if this is the problem but I'm not sure if I trust the alignments that have been done.
I can't get past the idea that your problem may not be caused by looseness but rather by binding. I've seen people try to take the play out of worn out steering gears to the point they bind so when you point the car in one direction it wants to stay there. I've used Lares Corp several times with good results for P/S boxes but never a manual box.
Tim Mabry
The Lost Cause Garage
47 Suburban
57 Sportsman 4dr HT
I have an appointment at a frame shop on Wednesday. They claim they can find my problem in an hour. I will print and share all these ideas with them when I go in. We shall see what they think. Right now, since all this started when this steering box was put in, I am inclined to think it is the steering box binding. I can't believe replacing the king pins or idler arm would cause this to start up. (They were replaced at the same time the steering box was replaced.) I need a steering box rebuilt for my convertible anyway (55 Fireflite) so thinking of sending two to Lares and have them gone through. See what happens on Wednesday.
Did the wandering problem begin when you had the front end work done? If so, that's the problem. Something isn't right with that job. Unless you have collision damage or severe rust, I doubt if your frame is a problem.
Have a nice day
Steve
PS, maybe tires got switched out from side to side by mistake when you had the work done. Try swapping the front tires side to side.
